Now I’m quite used to the preposterous claims Israel makes about itself and its neighbors, but this latest one takes the cake. In an ad campaign launched by the American Jewish Committee’s Boston Chapter in the Boston Globe (starting March 28 and running 11 weeks), Israel is portrayed as a tolerant, nurturing place for Israeli gays and lesbians, and a sanctuary for those gays and lesbians subjected to brutal attacks in other countries in the region.
Granted, Israeli gays and lesbians enjoy certain rights and there is a degree of official tolerance, but the insinuation that the country welcomes them with open arms is far from the truth. Last November’s Gay Pride Parade in Jerusalem, delayed several times already, was called off and staged instead under tight security inside a stadium. Thousands of police were deployed, an observation balloon floated over the center of Jerusalem and a helicopter patrolled the area. Seems the AJC forgot to mention that Israel’s orthodox community, which holds quite a sway over Israeli politics and society, was a teensy, weensy bit opposed to the country’s gay and lesbian community “defiling” the holy land. This year’s Gay Parade in June is expected to receive a similar welcome, with bombs already injuring one person and warning of more to come, and earlier parades witnessed the stabbing of several gay marchers.
That’s not to say the situation for gays and lesbians in neighboring Arab countries is any better. There is no official tolerance for gay and lesbian rights, and the community suffers from widespread homophobia. In fact, homophobia is the only thing that united Jews and Muslims last year, with the Muslim community supporting the anti-gay protests held by the orthodox Jews. However, my point of contention is the AJC’s misconstruction of the truth: gays and lesbians are not as warmly received by Israeli society as the AJC claims and there are certainly no gays and lesbians from the region seeking refuge in Israel.
But as the popular Arabic proverb says, “If you feel no shame, then do as you wish”. Since the AJC’s goal to influence American public opinion surpasses all ethical or factual considerations, I look forward to seeing how else Israel sets itself apart from its neighbors in the next few weeks of the campaign (earlier gems included the only country in the region to uphold the ideals of freedom and equality, and the country’s sole quest since the day it was “founded” to live in peace with its neighbors, continuing to strive (sob, sob) for peace despite the refusal of its “neighbors” the Palestinians to accept peaceful solutions). Damn, I’m so damn proud of them.
Wednesday, May 16, 2007
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It's not just that, Lebanon on its side thrives a relatively [cant stress relatively enough] healthy homosexual tolerant atmosphere. It was the first arab country where homosexuals actually held conferences, and marches, and I think they are planning one again for next year. [Helem]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4154664.stm
You're absolutely right, Yazan, I remember the Helem parade. Lebanese society is tolerant of many of the things Israel is claiming it has the monopoly on. In fact, I was there last month and found numerous books on homosexuality in the Middle East openly on sale (as well as tons of sex books). I was pleasantly shocked (picked up a book on homosexuality but I havent read it yet). And by the way, my boyfriend is coming back from Damascus tonight with my copy of your recommended Abdul Rahman Muneef's Now, Here. He was trying to talk me out of it, insisting it would depress me deeply. But he's bringing it anyway.
Lujayn, when it comes to books, i think even Syria can pride itself with a very tolerant atmosphere regarding books on sexuality. I have seen many books about homosexuality in many average bookstores, so i can imagine that the big shot book stores will definitley have a more extensive colection.
as for Muneef's book, well, as i said on DJ's blog,
You won't regret it. It will definitely not be a real "pleasant" read, its actually a very painful one, maybe it is just me, but it shook me in the same way Orwell's 1984 did when i read it for the first time or even more closely Zakaria Tamer's Damascus Fire.
But, comon, we need that. dont we?
Serious? Books on homosexuality in Syria? I'm impressed. Wait, they must be homosexuality bashing books :)
OK, pardon my Arab literature ignorance, what Zakaria Tamer's book about? I dont know the author but I'm interested in reading if its had a critical impact on someone like that.
Zakaria Tamer is the most widely renowned short story writer in the arab world. I can not recommend him enough, if your interested,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakaria_Tamer
His most famous collection is "Al-Nomour fi al-yawm al-3asher"
And my personal favorite is "Dimashq al-7ara2eq" or Damascus Fire.
Damascus Fire is the cruel reality of our existing, it is the simplest metaphors of our reality, the stories are so simple, but after each one of them u feel a gush inside, u feel anger, and then u start wondering why does it feel like this when ur reading it in a book, why dont u feel like this when u live it, in every single second out there...
at least thats my own feedback.
OK, recommendation noted. As soon as I find him, I'll read him. Thanks Yazan
This is one of those rare occasions where I am not really bother by the fact that Israel is ahead of us in a certain area!
*bothered
Dubai Jazz, initially I was discussing Israel's twisting of the truth to try to score brownie points among the American public.
However, I think tolerance is very lacking in our part of the world. I believe tolerance is a virtue that we hold regardless of what the other side does, lives or believes. Tolerance is not conditional on us believing in the other person's way of life and choices.
Otherwise, I end up "tolerating" only the things that I like, believe in, and accept. Which isnt really tolerance :))
Shou ra'yak?
Lujayn,
Your definition of tolerance is absolutely correct, you may not agree with the behavior and the orientation of a certain group, but you are still able to tolerate it.
I know this subject is sensitive and I know my words wouldn’t be swallowed easily. But I just can’t sugar quote it; I can’t tolerate homosexuality.
Let me share this with you…
I am now reading a novel about a pedophile, who’s also a serial killer. I am not going to narrate the whole novel so that it wouldn’t be spoiled in case you’d like to read it for yourself. But in a nutshell, the writer of the novel was able to portray the life of this guy in details. A very emotionally tormenting life: how the society had rejected his sentiments and orientations toward children, and how it’d eventually lead him to become a serial killer. Lashing back at the society for what they’ve done to him. He wrote very emotional letters on an internet board of which served as a discussion forum for him and his fellow pedophiles. By the time he was captured, he’d already murdered dozen of people. All the time thinking that he’s doing the right thing.
Would you be able to tolerate such a person? Or let me put it more aggressively: would you tolerate his orientations had you known that suppressing them would lead him to the destruction of himself and several other people in the process?
I, for one, can not tolerate his orientation. And I think that the only place for this guy is a shrink chair. And that he shouldn’t be let loose until he’s completely cured.
I know it is only a novel, but I can pretty much relate it to reality. Just do a google search on how many kids were abducted and murdered by pedophiles in the last couple of years in the US alone. You’d know what I am talking about.
Now, you might argue that pedophilia is incomparable to homosexuality, that homosexual relationship is a consensual agreement between two adults, and that pedophiles tend to be more violent and mentally sick than homosexuals… I agree to all that...
But still, there are few commonalities that I can not ignore. For instance:
- Both are deviations from the natural human desires. (men wanting women and vice versa, that is)
- Both were proven to be curable in a way or another…
There are few psychologists who might tell you that homosexuality is not a disease, and that it is not an acquired inclination (i.e. people are usually born with it. ). But I personally think that those allegations are pure nonsense.
Although the ASA (American Psychiatric Association) has removed homosexuality from their list of mental illnesses on 1978, the motive behind this removal was purely political.
Homosexuals were growing in numbers and were gaining compassion from human right activists and organization. (by conducting pleading marches like the ones you referred to in Lebanon)
Eventually, they’ve gained the grip over the ASA, and then forced the removal.
It as pure politics, I heard a supporting statement for what I said from a human rights author, on an American radio talk show called ‘Democracy Now’…
It’s like you know… the ASA had their good lists for decades, what could have been the scientific breakthrough in the 70s’ that has lead them to change their minds? Nothing, it was, as I said, pure political correctness thing…
The most alarming factor about all this is that homosexuality, in some cases, is an aggravating deviation from what is natural; people start with certain orientations and preferences, and once they are no longer satisfied, they move to something more kinky…
That usually ends up in pedophilia….
We should also not ignore the fact that homosexuality is spreading because it appeals to so many people, it’s become trendy you know….people like to imitate…
Despite all what I just said, I don’t deny their existence. I know they are there and they have their numbers. My belief is that they should seek help. You should get them to see counseling (even if it is against their well to do so). I will pray for their recovery, but tell then, let them do their thing behind closed doors. Not celebrating it in public.
Am I being too harsh????
(I just realized how long was my comment, sorry for that :)))))
*sugar coat
That was one long comment and very well argued, Dubai Jazz. However, I don’t subscribe to it. Homosexuality does not end up in pedophilia. Having sexual desires for children has nothing to do with having desires for other people from the same sex. Heterosexual pedophiles abuse girls, while homosexual pedophiles abuse boys. The commonality is pedophiles, not homosexuality or heterosexuality. My homosexual friends are as horrified as you are by pedophiles.
Homosexuality is not something that happens from imitation. I have had homosexual friends since I was 15. I have not become one. I never will become one. Homosexuals have been around heterosexuals most of their lives. If imitation was a trigger, then there would be no homosexuals. Homosexuality is not acquired. Nobody in their right mind would go through that abuse, ostracism, isolation, rejection and fear for the sake of an occasional pleasure, for the sake of imitating someone. I have friends who tried so hard to have heterosexual relationships because it was so difficult being gay, but they couldn’t. To them it felt like a heterosexual person having a homosexual relationship. If that’s not who you are, you can’t do it.
For every psychologist that claims that homosexuality is acquired, there is one that says it is something they are born with. I remember a particular study, years ago that studied the part of the brain that controls sexual desire, etc, in homosexual and heterosexual males and females. In homosexual men, that part was smaller than in heterosexual men, while in homosexual females, that part was larger than heterosexual women. There was obviously a physical difference in each and every one of the people (actually, cadavers) studied as per their sexual orientation. Its one study among many, and there are many other studies proving your point, but it means that there is something to the claim that people are born homosexuals.
If a few people have been “cured”, I think it’s more that they’ve suppressed their sexual needs. People do that all the time. Look at nuns and priests. They have needs, but they choose not do anything about it. Some can’t handle it though, and end up having sexual relationships.
Dubai Jazz, there are a lot of things that were considered illnesses or unacceptable years ago. The fact that homosexuality has begun to be accepted in the US is because more people are standing up for themselves. Politics? Maybe. But then again black people stood up for themselves about 50 years ago. Some people thought that was unacceptable too.
As for kinkiness, that’s not restricted to homosexual relationships. People of all sexual persuasions are kinky. Kinky does not have to lead anywhere. Its just kinky.
I’m sorry for the long reply, but you asked for it! :))
I also have a feeling this debate is going to keep going for a while.
Lujayn and all, I don't know how to comment on this with all the give and take that has diverted away from the original post. I think the point Lujayn was making is about the political use of the image of an open, peace loving, and westernized state that the Israeli Lobby uses for it political gain. But we know well that the image of democracy and tolerance can only be a lie in a racist state. I think less known, even to us, is the conservative side of Israel, read this BBC article for example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm.
But as some of you have pointed out, that should be no reason for us to congratulate ourselves (it is not about who is ahead - we are both doing really lousy I think).
As for the issue of homosexuality, I think we should give ourselves the chance to think about this without the loads of prejudice we were raised with. There is definitely a political side to all aspects of sexuality.. take women's sexual freedom as one of the most prominent examples. I think the the fact that homosexuality was still listed as a mental illness till 1978 was the political decision, not its removal. Anyway, this is a long debate, but check out Helem's website if you get the chance: http://www.helem.net/
Thanks for the link, Muzna. There's this one too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4923618.stm
Lujayn,
Do you really think at this age and time in the west, that medical institutions would be allowed to reinstate homosexuality as a disease? You know very well that each medical research is conditional to the interests of the individual or the group that is financing it. Nobody would be interested to throw their bucks on a project that will, in a way or another, deem them as homophobics.
So I can't rely on recent medical findings in discussing this subject, if Dr. X says that the size of a certain area in the brain decides whether we are going to be homos or hetros, then I will have to take that with a pinch of salt. I may even go further and say that Dr. X should check the size of his own brain (joking!)...
I haven't met so many homos in my life, so I have to admit the lack of first hand exposure (no pun intended). But I am just thinking, while I have had desires for girls since I was 5 years old. (apparently, that is the time when the thing starts emerging.) why haven't I seen other boys having similar feelings feelings and desires for each others?
And believe me, I met tons and tons of kids at that time; that the odds of not having a potential homo amongst them (who's showing his birth orientations) are naught.
This thing starts around adolescence, apparently...
Lujayn, I am sorry I am having to use coarse language, but it seems to me that I can't go on with the discussions unless I do so.
Let me tell you what I think. Homosexuality as I see it is a pure anal pleasure, where people who enjoy the feelings that is simultaneous with defecation, would also like to explore what is it like to have the thing going on in there. And it seems ( that what I learned from a repented homo) that the gay who starts practicing the thing as the Top, would end up desiring to be the Bottom. (hence the aggravation)
Let me give you this scenario; fast forward 50 years form now, and imagine with me that there is a top notch medical team, who's able to reach a conclusions and assurances, that pedophiles can then satisfy their desires with children without traumatizing them. Would you be able to rely on that medical achievement in tolerating pedophilia?
I don't think you would, the dominating factor in this whole issue is the moral side. If God wanted those poor souls to enjoy themselves, he would have given us the moral provisions that is needed for every one of us to accept and tolerate them. God is not up for tormenting people. Simple.
Dubai Jazz, I'm repeat, pedophiles have sexual relationships with children. Children are not consenting adults. There is a deviation there because there is a desire for domination, for control, for power, for gratification, that is forced upon a child. Homosexual adults having relationships with other homosexual adults is a different thing altogether. There is no room for comparison. Google search it yourself :) You'll find endless heterosexual pedophiles. Heterosexuals just like you and I.
You implied that psychiatrists (scientists) only removed homosexuality from a list of mental diseases in the 1970s out of political correctness, meaning privately they still believed it was a disease. Why should I believe your set of scientists and not mine? Why cant you rely on recent medical findings but rely on decades old psychiatrist opinions?
In the same way lobby groups fund research to prove their point, the other side does the same. The anti-homosexual crowd is not going to support any research that may find that homosexuality is not acquired but genetic. And they dont need to be politically correct because in the name of medical research, people research anything. The findings may bother many, but people still carry out research on controversial subjects. Look at the whole issue of stem cell research and cloning.
As for boys having desires for girls at the age of 5, I really cant give an opinion on that, as I'm not sure how early boys develop. I feel its a bit strange, but I'll tolerate it for the sake of argument. However, while I may accept the fact that five-year old boys may have desires for five year old girls, I doubt they discuss it amongst themselves. I have never heard anything like "isnt she just the hottest chick?" or "look at those legs" coming out of a five-year old's mouth. If five year old boys were feeling something for other boys, they most likely didnt voice it, in the same way five year old boys having desires for girls didnt voice their feelings. I doubt at that age they really know what they're feeling (whether homosexual or heterosexual).
As for the discussion of sexual pleasures involved, which I dont really want to get into, I just want to point out that lesbians as well as heterosexuals who get pleasure from the same positions as homosexuals, dont really fit your description.
Finally, even though I usually dont like to bring God into the discussion, seeing as his message is twisted to suit everyone's agenda, I know for a fact that some children are born with both sets of genitalia. What do you think God intended with that one? You cant accept certain things from God and decide others are not really his work, especially since these babies havent really done anything but be born.
My stance on things is, I'll accept them for what they are. I deal with people, for who they are as people, not what they do in their bedrooms. I dont ask every heterosexual couple I know what goes on in their sexual lives to assess whether they're straight enough for my friendship. I don’t do that with homosexuals either. I don’t care what anyone does, as long as they're decent, honest, humane people.
Dubai Jazz, I wish the world were one color, one flavour. That way we wouldnt have to worry about anything, or take a stance on anything, or have to challenge ourselves. But the world isnt one flavour. I didnt make it that way, God did. He must have had a reason, and I doubt it was to turn us into judgmental human beings. I know I'm discussing the issue from an emotional, personal angle, but thats what it is for me. I cant look at friends I've had since we were 15 and say they're perverts and sickos, just to go with the flow. I have to challenge my accepted beliefs and say, hey, these guys do not fit my norms, but they’re fine people. Maybe I need to rethink this one.
Damn!
I stay away from blogging for one week and here's what I miss.
The post is great. The debate in the comment section is equally good.
I'm still tired after all the driving of the last few days so there's no way I can comment in an intelligent manner (just read my latest post to get an idea about my present state of mind). In principle, I 100% agree with Dubai Jazz. There are 2 levels of acceptance toward any social issue. On the personal level, I believe that homosexuals can do whatever they want in their lives as long as they keep it private. On a social and political level though, I oppose most of their demands, mainly their contention that they should have the right to adopt children and their insistence of publicly enforcing their image as being equally acceptable as hetrosexuals. I am against them in a democratic sort of way. I am also against the far right which denies their right to exist.
Well they've been around throughout history but their continous presence is bilogically parasitic. A Hetrosexual culture can survive without homosexuals, but it can not happen the other way around. Perhaps this has a meaning after all.
Lujayn;
First of all I must say that i really appreciate your patience in replying to my comments.
I wasn’t comparing pedophilia to homosexuality, my question was suggestive and hypothetical. Anyway, I will read further about those two issues, if I can only be lucky enough to find reliable resources. Everyone needs an education every once in a while, me included.
By the way, the moral stance I am judging the issue of homosexuality through, is in my view intrinsic and incontrovertible. Hence we don’t have to convince each other, nor prove each other wrong.
Sure I’d love to be able to accept people as they are. But there are things in life (specially things that are unnatural), that couldn’t be accepted. If someone is a thief by birth, I can’t accept him. (I am not comparing theft to homosexuality, it was only for the sake of argument…)
Lujayn, believe me it hurts me a lot to see people in pain, but that doesn't mean that i would warrant any immoral activities (in my own view again) just to let them relieve their pain...
Although I haven’t met so many homos in my life as I said, but the few that I met, specially recently, seemed quite weird and unstable. I was betting I’d say that most of them were mentally unhealthy. You might argue that it is because of the social pressure excreted on them to suppress their needs, I would say that repression has nothing to do with the matter. I restrained and disciplined my desires over 14 years of adulthood. Because of my convictions, and I don’t think that this has particularly affected my mental health, I might lament the missing opportunities sometimes. But other than that, nothing…
I am not against bringing God to the conversation. To be honest with you (and I can only say this in your blog because I know I wouldn’t be deemed as a religious chauvinist maniac), my whole stance is built around religious beliefs. God might have created babies that are deformed, but he had also planted it in our hearts to sympathize with those babies, and try our best to treat them. That’s our innate moral responsibility. However, when it comes to homosexuality, my innate judgment is that I can’t sympathize with them (that’s an innate response supported by religious precepts).
All I could see be offered to them in this case are, as I said earlier, two things: ‘Counseling’, and ‘Freedom Behind Closed Doors’.
Hey Lujayn... Sorry girl but I totally agree with DJ ... and i want to add that I do not tolerate them... in democratic way or any other way.... take in consideration that quite a big number of gays are being raised like this when kidnapped while being kidds!!!! so ?
Another thing... lets put the things all the way around... lets say that the natural thing was that men have a relationship with men and girls with girls ... and (current) normal relationships have accured as a homosexual ones!!! how do you think those with alleged normal relationships would have delt with the issue ? as tolerant as we are being asked to be ? i dont think so ... we would have faced the same thing from them coz its odd and weired to human normal nature...its only odd...its (though some of you wouldnt like how i say it) discusting .... I CANT STAND A GUY ACTING SISSY.... MOVING HIS HAIR BEHIND HIS EARS IN GIRLY WAY...
another thing came to my mind... the strange thing is that most of those who would agree to give those gays or lesbians their alleged rights.. are girls!!!! i dont understand... when guys are accused of looking at girls from a sexual angle only which bothers girls all the time... they still support those gays' "RIGHTS" though the main reason of those kind of relationships is the SEX ORIENTATION , correct me if i am wrong here ,, but this would drive me insane ... girls are just way too emotional talking about people's rights, and if a guy would like to give them their "RIGHTS" i would consider him a gay as well....
sorry if my comment seems to be aggressive, in fact it is aggressive, but its not aggressive towards you nor anybody here.Its just my tone towards things that i can not tolerate .. :)
Abu Fares, you make some good points, and I respect your position. My point of contention is that society's definition of normal and abnormal shifts constantly.There have been plenty of times when society's position on "abnormal" things is now looked upon as racist, sexist and a few other -ists. In western culture, plenty of homosexual couples are raising children who turn out to be fine, balanced, heterosexual people. If they want to have children, who am I to say no?
Dubai Jazz, our sense of morality is based on our own interpretation of God's commandments. One of my interpretations comes from the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman who was going to be stoned. He told the men getting ready to stone her "he who is without sin cast the first stone". I am not always sure who or what is right or wrong in this world, but I do know I'm not going to be casting stones.
Dubai Salsa, I have a boyfriend who believes homosexuals have as much right to be who they are as you have a right to be who you are. I personally dont care what you think of him. Sorry if I sound aggressive, but thats my tone against things I cant tolerate too. I dont see how you can pass judgement on EVERYONE, left and right, without knowing them.
Lujain... Again i dont have anything against you nor your boyfriend. I dont know him personally.
And yes, you dont need to care about what i think ! I wasnt expecting you to do so.. am not saying this in an aggressive tone this time :) coz really this is what i believe, i wasnt trying to force my opinion on you nor making you agree with me!!
But i have a question:
I agree that i generalized ( which is wrong to generalize most of the times), and ofcourse when i said that who ever thinks that gays should have their rights is gay... and as your boyfriend thinks that they should have their rights.. then (generally speaking, without intention) he was included in those ones that i consider gays..(again its that i mean that he is gay ) So you emphasized on that coz according to my theory he is gay , and it pissed you off ?
So is it the idea that i call your boyfriend a gay that pissed you off ? If so , then sorry to say that deep inside you hate them too, if its not like that then i dont know what it is, coz this how i got it.
:) Lujain ,, again i didnt mean to jump on your post and start attacking, and no problem with your aggressive tone, I am a man and I can take the aggression of a girl :)
BTW... DJ told me a lot about you, he really admires you as a friend and your intellectual mind !! In fact we were thinking of gathering oneday... Unless you started already hating the "gays Hater" !! :)
cheers
Correction ....
consider gays..(again its NOT that i mean that he is gay )
cheers :)
Dubai Salsa, I wasnt pissed off because you called my boyfriend gay. I used him as an example of a heterosexual man who believes in accepting other people's differences.
I was actually pissed off because you so easily pass judgement on other people and issues which you know very little about (like men who accept homosexuality must be gay, that people grow up to be homosexuals because they were kidnapped as kids, that women are too emotional when they talk about people's rights, and other similar crap). You are entitled to your opinion but I wish you could have made an informed opinion instead, even if your conclusion was still that homosexuals were "wrong".
@Lujayn,
not at all, most of the books that i have seen on the shelves, even though they are not promoting homosexulaity, but most of them were social studies about homosexulaity, and translations about it.
Ofcourse you will always find 10 books bashing it for every other book debating it, but still, you will not see that kind of a cultural scene, say, in Cairo...
DS,
I am not picking up fights with you my friend but that comment was just outrageous.
You know, the only thing i can not tolerate, is intolerance. because you have absolutly no right to pass these judgments, nevermind the absolutely absurd generalizations. I have a feeling that you feel morally superior to those "wicked homosexuals", let me tell you a little secret, Youre not.
unless you wanna argue that your sexuality defines who you are as an individual, unless you wanna strip down a person's identity, and humanity, to his sexual orientations, and with that you wouldnt be any different for those who'd judge jews because they're jews, or arabs, or blacks... or whatever.
Now, I am a heterosexual who believes in homosexual rights, just like Lujayn's bf, and probably just like another billion heterosexual males who believe that nobody is allowed to question, judge, or oppress your sexual orientations, desires, unless they constitute a danger to another individual.
It's another variation of the many variations we have in our lives as humans, i can not understand why people are so keen on adopting this one uniform and claiming it as the absolute truth. Yes ofcourse most of the people are heterosexual, it makes sense because it is our instinct, our survival instinct, and it is a beautiful form of pleasure and desire for all of us heterosexuals. But that all people must condone to it. I personally disagree with so many stuff about the lives of so many people, I disagree with a lot of ideologies, I disagree with Muhammed and Jesus and I hate hentai culture in japan, and I despise so many of the social norms that root deeply in our middle east. But I would never even think of passing a judgment like, Islam is bad religion, or This is Wrong, When u start speaking with words that have such an absolute meaning, like Right and Wrong, you imply that you own the truth, and that everyone else is wrong. and that is just unacceptable, especially if you're aiming for a debate. Nobody owns the whole truth, there is not a single absolute concept in our lives... yet its so easy for us to slip in there.
At least thats what I personally believe in.
The judgmental part was the one that really swept me off, now the generalizations, well, I wont even go there, because I know that if you sit for 5 minutes and think about what you had written, or google what your saying, you'll realize that [regardless of the fact that No generalization is acceptable] what you said, about heterosexuals who support gay rights are homosexual, and that homosexuals are kids who were kidnapped, are just absurd.
Yazan, thanks :)
Forgot to tell you, Yazan, the book didnt make it from Damascus. Apparently it was raining very hard on the boyfriend's last day there, he "said" he couldnt make it to any bookstore because of the floods. :)) Yala, I'll pick it up when I go.
Lujain & Yazan…..
Sorry that I am commenting on both of you at the same time, but it seems like you share the same OPINION and even the same points against my OPINION. ( you will get to know why I put the "opinion" in capitals ).
I've seen the word Judgment rolling quite several times to me… well, would you tell me the difference between Judgment and Opinion? Coz I am not a judge nor a president of the "anti-homosexuals association" To bring my judgment to life…though again I don’t see how it is a judgment !!!! A judgment is usually – as you said – is trying to impose your opinion and affect it on that party who you think is wrong !!! Fine, when I don’t have the power to impose my JUDGMENT , what do you call it then ? I guess its an opinion .. Right ? Now, don’t tell me its not an opinion, even when it comes to that part " I would consider men who believe in the homosexuals rights, as gays" … still an opinion… you can consider it as a metaphor to express my ultimate hate towards homosexuals, when it doesn’t really make you (yazan) nor Your boy friend (Lujain) a real gay !!!
Lujain … ” I dont see how you can pass judgement on EVERYONE, left and right, without knowing them." Now , know whom exactly ? coz if you meant the homosexuals themselves, then sorry , I don’t need/want to know them, coz the thing that I hate is the thing that I hate them and Judge them for !!! Their Sex orientation.
Now if you meant that your boyfriend believes in their rights and I don’t know him …. then I would agree with you , but , you may refer to the first part of my comment.
"You are entitled to your opinion but I wish you could have made an informed opinion instead, even if your conclusion was still that homosexuals were "wrong". " Fine we agree that I have the right to my opinion… and that’s exactly what I did !! The only difference is that I over-expressed it – maybe – which you couldn’t take it ….
"I am not picking up fights with you my friend but that comment was just outrageous." No problem at all ….. its your opinion, and I don’t mind hearing it from you!!!
"You know, the only thing i can not tolerate, is intolerance. because you have absolutly no right to pass these judgments, nevermind the absolutely absurd generalizations." Well,,, excuse me here !!! So basically you somehow have an intolerance – am not discussing why nor what – and not only that, you are preventing me from the right of SAYING an opinion/judgment ( pick the one you like) about what I think is wrong !!!! Now, that sounds outrageous to me !!! But I can tolerate that, why ? coz you are not a homosexual !!!
"I have a feeling that you feel morally superior to those "wicked homosexuals", let me tell you a little secret, Youre not."
YES I DO …. If that makes you feel better on how I feel towards them !!! In fact you described right , thanks. Well guess what ? I am morally superior to them.
"unless you wanna argue that your sexuality defines who you are as an individual, unless you wanna strip down a person's identity, and humanity, to his sexual orientations, and with that you wouldnt be any different for those who'd judge jews because they're jews, or arabs, or blacks... or whatever."
Isn't it how they define themselves ??? Their sex orientation ? Or am I missing something here ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plus that discriminating according to religion and race and color have nothing to do with our issue here ,, I think its obvious that it has nothing to do with this or even lets say that you can't compare the issue of homosexuals to religion , race or color…. !!! I don’t know how you could do this comparison in your mind !!!
Yazan …. Seems like you like the word absurd as much as I hate homosexuals and to let you know how much I hate homosexuals , I think they are absurd and stupid.
To tell you the truth guys ….. Just to be fair …. I let a guy read the whole post and comments from the beginning ( it was a burden on him to read all of it ) without him knowing that I am DS ,,,, and I asked for his opinion …. He said one word :
Yazan and Lujain are not practicing what they are preaching !!!!
Homosexuals are odd to this life ….yes they are, and that’s how they will always be, even that in some countries they have what is called their rights!!!!
Maybe if had put in another way, you would have accepted my words, but I would like express my hate feelings towards something that I hate as much I would like to express my love to something that I love.
Then I was thinking …… and trying to give homosexuals and their alleged rights an excuse ….. just imagine that someday a punch of "Animasexuals" - this is what I will call them- would start to ask for their rights in this world !!!!!!!! and don’t look at it as strange thing !!! or don’t try to say that this will not happen …. If we keep giving such rights to such people ,,,, then we will just end up in a ZOO .
Well, that was an opinion and I don’t expect any body to agree with me.
Cheers
DS,
I am in no way judging you, first because I personally believe that its not my place to judge anyone, plus the fact that any idea even the ones youre bluntly writing here may have yet another hidden interpretation that i might not bee able to see, I believe that actions are what matter. If you start implementing those ideas, then i would be furious, then i would judge you, and then i would lose respect [no that you care, or should care, i am merely denying the fact that my comment was judgmental] if i was, i wouldnt be even in a debate with you, when u debate someone that means you see him as an equal, while you on the other hand, start your discussion feeling morally superior to them, and stripping them out of their humanity [who exactly gave you such a right?] and comparing them to animals [and you cant make it anymore like racism, because the only things that come to mind now, is how black people were treated in the US, because you see, dark skin is ODD...]
Let me put the difference between opinion and judgment in simple terms, someone has an opinion about an idea, a fact, or a social phenomenon like now, u dont have to agree, you can be fiercely against, but judging means that u disregard everything that other humanbeing has to offer, or IS, and instead treat him with your own preconceptions based on one single part of their personality.
and by the way, no they dont introduce themsleves as just homosexuals, they introduce themselves as people, humans, they like theatre, they might like sports, they can be computer people, they are humans just like the next guy, except in their bedrooms their sexual pleasure comes from different means... I dont get how someone can put himself all the way up high and decide what kind of sexual pleasure people have the right to have? i just cant imagine that... I mean, you feel like your superior to all those 6 billions to have the right to tell them what they can do and what they cant do, whether its S&M or vibrators or group sex, or homosexuality, or whatever kind of the "unnatural" [according to you] way of life...
Dubai Salsa, I don’t see where I am being judgmental and not practicing what I preach? If someone made a statement like, Syrians are genetically uncultured or stupid, you would just write them off as nuts. People make stereotypical statements like that on a regular basis with Syrians, don’t they? They are not factual, are they? Yet they are the kind of statements you made. I am justified in "not taking it", as you said. I told you, if you back your opinions with anything other than stereotypes and misconceptions, I would respect your opinion.
This dialogue is not about proving whether homosexuality is right or wrong. Neither you nor I are going to make much of an impact on the homosexuality debate. You will continue to dislike homosexuals and I will continue to accept their right to have the relationships that they want. However, I hope that we can work on rooting out misconceptions and stereotypes from our debates in order to take more informed positions. After all, Syrians are not genetically stupid. :))
Take it easy, Dubai Salsa and I extend my apologies to your friend who had to endure my long post :))
Hi Lujayn, Thank you for bringing up the story of the immmaculate Jesus Christ, I wish more and more people (including me) would learn morales from these stories...
And Thank you for wraping up this post at a high note, after all it's like as we say in Arabic:
"Al ikhtelaf fi al ara3i, la yofsed li al weddi kadia!"
:)
Hi Yazan... well,, heh.. i would go for what DJ has said... coz it seems that we will keep rolling and repeating... any way at the end od the day each on of us has an opinion... at least that is what are agreeing on :) !!! Isnt that good enough ? :)
Lujain... Well... No need at all to apologize ... he enjoyed it anyway :) by the way, something that i didnt say, and i think its fair to say it, that he liked your style of writing.. In fact I should appologize for if i had crossed the lines by being a bit aggressive though am in your blog, but i didnt meant to be aggressinve to nor to Yazan and your posts will still be enjoyable :) .. any way as I said above, we still dont mind hearing the other party's opinion... which is good....
DJ ... for sure man ,, i totally agree with you , Al Khilaf La yufsid lel wudd qadiyya...
Dubai Jazz, Dubai Salsa, here's to many more arguments and differing opinions... Salam
DS,
no hard feelings, never.. ;) thats what we do here, its not fun if we dont get wiled up every once in a while...
Lujayn, Yazan, Dubai Salsa: let’s find somebody who thinks Syrians are genetically stupid and let’s beat the hell out of him. All of us together. Wouldn’t that be fun!
Dubai Jazz, I busted my butt cycling across three countries in support of non-violent action, and you want me to beat some idiot to a pulp for the fun of it?? la ya Dubai Jazz, la! :))
Lujayn,
Reading the post was a piece of cake. Now having to scroll down for more than 10 minutes and read the arguments you guys had, was a different story
I have nothing to add on what you have already argued.
Personally, I think the Arab world does not have a quite impressive record in accepting differences, though sometimes it shocks you to see how tolerant people can be no matter how strict or un-accepting the might seem to be.
I, for one, do believe in people having right to exist and express their love to any human being, let it be a man or a woman.
I strongly disagree with DJ argument that pedophile are to be compared to or even categorized with homosexuals.
I admire your courage Lujayan and your boyfriend’s open mildness, proud of you guys.
RnD
Hey Restless in Dubai, didnt notice that you had commented here. Thanks for your kind support!
Well written article.
Thanks Rhona - the blog has been inactive for a while but its nice that people are still coming across it. One of these days, I'll pull it out of hibernation - theres plenty to vent about!
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